Sun24 News

Wirecard Sacked, Season 1: Ninth episode, The cross examinations

An investigative podcast about the Wirecard scandal in Munich's Stadelheim court

Another episode of the 'Wirecard Sacked' podcast, this season 1 is about detailed insider accounts of the proceedings in Munich's Stadelheim prison courtroom that have been going on for well over a year.

This is the ninth episode about the Wirecard trial.

Contents:
Most of the time was taken up by the judge himself (→ 00:36)
I left 3 times a day, because I could not stand it any longer (→ 01:59)
Suddenly, there were 6 police men standing in front of his door at 7am in the morning (→ 02:42)
Have you talked with any witnesses? (→ 05:42)
Jörg constantly submits documents to the court (→ 09:32)
What will the result of the endless court proceeding be? (→ 12:03)

Season 1, Episode 9

Wirecard Sacked - The Court Proceeding

00:00

Here an article about the questioning of Wirecard's former chief accountant von Erffa:
Questioning Chief Accountant 1 - Questioning Chief Accountant von Erffa 1

Here another article about the judge questioning of Wirecard's former chief accountant von Erffa:
Questioning Chief Accountant 2 - Questioning Chief Accountant von Erffa 2

And another article about the prosecutor's questioning of former chief accountant von Erffa:
Questioning Chief Accountant von Erffa 3 - Prosecutors Questioning of former Chief Accountant von Erffa 1

Plus another article about the prosecutor's questioning of former chief accountant von Erffa:
Questioning Chief Accountant von Erffa 4 - Prosecutors Questioning of former Chief Accountant von Erffa 2

Previous
Episode 8 - The Confession

Next
Episode 10 - The Final


Transcript 

(Music) 

Wirecard Sacked, The Sun24 News Podcast, Season 1, Episode 9. 

Jörg: And it should be said again, a lying key witness makes himself particularly liable to prosecution and is gone as a key witness. And without Bellenhaus' testimony, Bühring is a naked emperor. 

Martin: Von Erffa also finished his statement a few days ago, but was then cross-examined three or four more times in court. Most of the days, most of the time was taken up by the judge himself, who repeatedly quoted e-mails in which von Erffa was then addressed on CC or sometimes directly and some facts were forwarded to him for information and mostly, it really has to be said, simply for his information. And the judge and then later the public prosecutor's office always tried to interpret this as active involvement in matters where a chief accountant has no say. So any treasury matters, liquidity matters in lending, legal matters, where von Erffa always and repeatedly did not say, I'm not answering now, but answered extensively and explained why he had simply been informed on this certain e-mail as chief accountant, but he had no direct involvement in the actions in a sales department, in contract setting, simply had no say. And that went on for days, one e-mail after the other, yes, but you were here and you must be responsible and you had a say where you weren't supposed to. That was really, really grotesque. I noticed it at some point, I think you noticed it too, I think you also got up at some point in protest. 

Jörg: I sometimes went out three times in one morning because I couldn't take it anymore. I have to be honest, you also have to say that Erffa's first statement was when? 25. June, I think I already said it today, 2020. He was the first to testify. 

Martin: He voluntarily went to the public prosecutor's office after they knocked on his door, with his lawyer, explained the TPA model to them and also to his lawyer, brought invoices with him, as he himself testified, so he was in the rooms with the responsible Wirecard public prosecutor and others and a police commissioner. And two days later, his house was stormed. Suddenly, at seven in the morning, there are six police officers at his door, searching his house, confiscating bills and then arresting him in front of his family and taking him away. 

Jörg: Yes, and it was like this, he didn't hide any hard drives in any relatives' laundry rooms, but he described how he somehow had a relatively small desk and had all the documents prepared there. As I said, sometimes I couldn't stand it anymore, and I couldn't stand situations in which Judge Födisch held up a case that Erffa hadn't incriminated anyway and then simply didn't understand what Erffa was answering. And I couldn't take it anymore, I'm really no expert, but von Erffa gave him preliminary figures, for example, he explained it to him in detail and Födisch stomped off in that direction again. There was the day when it was said, it was also very funny, I think you ran out and I thought he meant me, because Födisch then said that he had been told that an audience member had run out of the room snorting with rage and he didn't understand why people could get so emotional in such a factual meeting. Two hours later, von Erffa really attacked him and then Mr. Födisch almost started shouting. Then I thought, well, Mr. Fötisch, what's the situation here now? Do you actually have to get so emotional just when Mr. von Erffa factually refutes what he's just said? 

Martin: Well, I also fled once because it was unbearable, but a few days ago, not so long ago now, Thursday, September, now in September 2024, I was sitting in the courtroom with a few people again. It was the morning again, was again taken up by the judge to cross-examine von Erffa once more and then from, I think 2 p.m., not 20 minutes after I had coincidentally just entered the courtroom, so I came in after the lunch break, the prosecution started the cross-examination. The first time the prosecutors asked questions to von Erffa and then they suddenly stopped with their regular questions. Suddenly one of the prosecutors looked at von Erffa and asked him whether he had somehow contacted and spoken to any Wirecard employees after his release from prison, since von Erffa had been in prison. And von Erffa says, yes, no, absolutely not. Well, as he remembers it, he once met a former Wirecard employee at a dentist's appointment and immediately signed to him, hello, we're not allowed to talk here, and he also reported it to the court or the public prosecutor's office that he had met someone there, briefly, but there were no conversations with him. And then the prosecutor looked up again and said, yes, well, but did you talk to any witnesses? For example yesterday, the prosecutor then quoted the date and said, yesterday afternoon you were talking to a certain Jörg here in the corridor outside the courtroom. And that was a witness. And then the prosecutor immediately starts to read out the law, what can happen if a defendant illegally talks to a witness in a trial. And I don't know, three, four, five years' imprisonment, the judge suddenly gets pissed off, how dare von Erffa talk to a witness, who is sitting right opposite of me here now while we're doing the podcast. 

Jörg: Wait, wait, wait. So you're not sitting opposite a witness from the trial. No one who was a witness, no one who will be a witness. And everyone, everyone involved in the trial knows that. 

Martin: But why? Now we have to cross-examine you.

Jörg: No, you're welcome to cross-examine me. It's quite simple. I think it was January 12th. Don't pin me down to January 12th. I was in Stadelheim for the first time. It was lunch break and then, I think, a female prosecutor came up to me and said, are you Mr. So-And-So? And I was very startled and thought, what's going on? And then she said, yes, you are a potential witness and this must now go to the presiding judge. And I, who always attach great importance to my anonymity, had to go through all the press people, through all the lawyers, up to the presiding judge and stood in front of him like a schoolboy and the public prosecutor's office explained that I was a potential witness. And then Födisch said, yes, he has to clarify that with the parties to the proceedings. And I assumed that this would now be clarified during the lunch break. What happened was that after the lunch break I came back in and Mr. Födisch said, is Mr. Sowieso in the room, which was relatively full? 

Martin: Jörg?

Jörg: That Jörg, me. And I had to stand up and they said, aha, that's you. So it's like this, the public prosecutor asked me in front of everyone, he asked everyone, everyone involved in the trial and now he comes up with this abstruse idea. 

Martin: Wait, he asked everyone and then what? 

Jörg: Yes, he asked, would you like to have him as a witness at some point? No, no, no, no. 

Martin: Wait, he officially asked if anyone wants this Jörg at some point during this whole wirecard process? 

(Music)

Jörg: The point is, if this gentleman, now I almost said my name, that Jörg, if that Jörg is ever going to be a witness, he would have had to leave the room now, because then you're not allowed to be a listener. And then everyone said it wasn't a problem, because I wasn't going to be a witness. 

Martin: Everyone answered with no. 

Jörg: Someone must have known that too, so perhaps this mistake, this mistake by the forgetful public prosecutor, who, as far as I know, was the one who faced me in person and went to see me completely, he must have forgotten at that moment on Thursday. And the senior public prosecutor sitting next to him also forgot for a short time. Födisch also forgot at short notice. That's impossible. 

Martin: So there's another thing that still needs to be clarified. 

Jörg: Someone must have noticed that it wasn't true. 

Martin: I was flabbergasted too. Once again, I fell off my stool for the umpteenth time when I witnessed the whole thing, as one of the few people watching from the back. But then the judge chimed in and said, yes, this Jörg, he writes documents all the time. I'm quoting now. Documents to the court in which he, quote, wants to influence the court proceedings. And then he looks at von Erffa and becomes even more aggressive and then says, and von Erffa, we have to seriously think about this now. We're going to take a break now. We'll interrupt the hearing for five minutes and now we'll find out, really consider, whether we should carry out a custody examination of you. 

Jörg: So Födisch wants to lock von Erffa up because he's making me a witness, even though he knows I'm not a witness. If anyone here has made a mistake, it's me and then he should come to me and not go to von Erffa. What does he have to do with it? 

Martin: Then there was this break, during which I had a brief opportunity to chat again with von Erffa's lawyer and defense attorney. Everyone, with the exception of certain mass media journalists who were present, was astonished and probably half shocked on von Erffa's part. However, we also found out quite quickly that a connection had somehow been or must have been cut. In other words, somehow the attack wasn't just on von Erffa and you, but also that there was no way any information could flow any more. 

Jörg: I understood that to mean that there could be no influence. Födisch's accusation is also a public accusation that I am unduly influencing the court with anything based on facts. So if a court is influenced by facts, it means that it hasn't been influenced by facts so far. 

Martin: After this very short five-minute break in court, the trial continued. After one or two sentences from von Erffa's second defense lawyer, the public prosecutor said, well, let's leave it alone and get on with it. After the trial, the judge then asked again that von Erffa's defense attorneys remain alone in the room with the judge, and of course everyone else had to leave the courtroom because the trial was over. There were probably a few more informal words, about which no one has really found out anything yet. But that ultimately brings us to the point where things stand. What do you think the outcome of this seemingly endless court case will be? 

Jörg: It's desperation. Well, as I said, I can't put it any other way, it's despair about what's happening. I'm stunned and desperate and that makes me so emotional. So I have a suggestion and that is that the process should be stopped tomorrow, as before. That has been the demand from the beginning and it would be the right decision. You can justify it objectively, procedurally. It can be justified under the Code of Criminal Procedure. In my opinion, the procedural reality amounts to a stalemate. So you also have to be clear about one thing. Neither the defense of von Erffa nor the defense of Markus Braun is acting confrontationally. It's sometimes written that way, but they're actually still very constructive. I think they're really biting their tongues. I can't quite assess that yet.

(Music)

Speaker:
Jörg - longtime Wirecard expert and investigator
Martin - Investigative lead at Sun24 News and Wirecard expert

Organization and realization:
Martin D. / Sun24 News

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About extorted confessions and Bavarian radio news

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About supervisory board advising lawyers

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About an obscure questioning of a Wirecard lawyer

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About crazy judiciary talks and on-target court motions

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About unsolved issues in Germany's master finance scandal

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About strong Spanish financial analyses and weak French allegations

All Inside The Singapore Folder

About Wirecard book keepings an email conversations

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About a Wirecard interim-CEO on a Swiss rose mountain

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About Swiss roses and Wirecard bears

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About bears from London and Wirecard targetings

Mount Acronis

About a Swiss IT sponsor and Wirecard entanglements

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About a Wirecard whistleblower and magic law firms

The Trial

About a Wirecard release of prisoner and Franz Kafka's unfinished works

The Grand Orchestra

About Wirecard's share price and dolphins against sharks

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About Swiss Wirecard entanglements and the remains of Crypto AG

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About seven months in Munich Stadelheim and the miracle of Bern

Pandora's Box

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BaFin The Thirteenth

An April 13th day at the Wirecard investigational committee